Transcript 0:00 Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Melanin MVP. Today, I'm joined by an interesting guest. This is not an athlete to my knowledge, or the [laughs] founder of a women's outdoor recreational group. 0:15 This is another podcaster. Dominic Lawson is the host of Black Is America, and he did an incredible episode about women in track that I think would be really great to share with you all. 0:28 Dominic, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you so much for having me. I want to introduce to people the premise of this episode. So if you haven't listened to it, go check it out. 0:38 I will link it below in the show notes. But the premise of the episode stems around telling the stories of three American women in track, and I use three loosely. 0:46 It's actually a little bit more than three, so let's leave three in an asterisk since Dominic already buried the lead there. But I want to [laughs] 0:54 I wanna talk to you about how you came up with the idea and the storyline for an episode about Black women in track. Angela, thank you so much for having me, and to share the opportunity to break down the episode. 1:08 I don't often get to do that with my episodes, so I appreciate that. The name of the show is Black Is America, so right there it crystallizes the angle where we're going with, right? 1:17 The idea of Black Is America is to show that we as African Americans have contributed to this country in a myriad of ways, right? 1:25 One of the things I always say, Angela, is the story of America without Black America will be simply incomplete. 1:32 You cannot tell the story of this country, of this 300, 200-year-old country, or however long it's been a country, without us from its inception and even before that, right? 1:42 So with the premise of Wilma Flo- Florence and Sha'Carri, American Women of Speed, which is what the, it's titled, I really wanted to have this idea 1:53 of going through generations and showing that, like, throughout the generations, Black women, when it comes to track and field, have been not just present, but dominant [laughs] in their respective fields. 2:05 From Wilma growing up from my home state of Tennessee, all the way to, uh, Texas and Sha'Carri and what she did, and you cannot talk about American track and field without Florence Griffith Joyner. 2:17 It's just, it's impossible. So I wanted to do this, this trilateral kind of storyline, if you will. Almost a cliche passing the baton kind of thing- Mm-hmm... if you will. 2:31 But I wanted to highlight that it's three different runners, three different experiences, three different eras. 2:37 But also at the same time, while it is three different eras, there's a lot of similarities of adversity, of overcoming, of proving that, like, you are greater than what people, you know, expectations are. 2:49 You know what I mean? And so I, I thought with these three particular women, it was just a perfect example of the Black woman track and field experience. 3:00 And we were able to have Mashomi Robinson, who's a gold medalist herself in the 4x400 relay, to able to help give us commentary. 3:09 Because one thing I'll never be able to experience is a track and field gold medal champion as a Black woman, right? But let me bring in somebody who knows what that experience is like. 3:20 And Mashomi did a fantastic job of putting us on the track and on the, in the experience of those three women, and I think she did a phenomenal job helping us glue together those three stories, and it just came out really well. 3:37 In shows like Netflix's Sprint, which try to chronicle what it is like to compete as a track athlete at a very high level- Right... 3:45 there are obviously complaints about some of the athletes that are chosen and some of the events that are featured. Right. I'm very glad that you featured a relay runner, because not all relay runners do single events. 4:00 Right. They, not all of them do 100 m- 100-meter or 200-meter sprints. When I think about American track specifically, there are a lot of other names that come to mind currently. 4:13 What was your thought process in featuring Sha'Carri and maybe not mentioning as many other names throughout the series? So, uh, there's a little bit of personal motivation when it came to Sha'Carri's story because 4:29 when Sha'Carri came on the scene, she was this superstar, right? At Olympic trials was her coming out party. Like, we had heard of her during LSU and stuff like that, but track and field is not the NFL, right? 4:41 So it's hard to track people in track. It's kinda hard to keep up with those athletes, right? And so she comes on the scene, and then she has her adverse moment, right? 4:51 With the marijuana and not being able to compete at the Tokyo Olympics. And Angela, I'll just be honest with you. I was in the comments defending her. I was. Like, 'cause people were... Let, let's just be honest. 5:04 People were throwing her away, and I, I just didn't appreciate that. How many of us at 21, 20 haven't done dumb things? 5:12 If there was cameras and social media like that back then like it is now, a lot of us would be put on blast a lot more [laughs] than, than whatever. And we like to be all self-righteous. But anyway. But I wanted to 5:25 highlight that redemption arc, right? And I think that redemption arc really highlights the story of Black women, not e- even just in ath- in athletics, but just in general, right? 5:36 This idea of being sub or less than or whatever, right? Because one of the things, honestly, Angela, I always ask is what's worse, racism or sexism? Because [laughs] listen, I, I ask that question often, right? 5:53 And sometimes, I'm not gonna lie, I feel like sexism wins out quite often, right? Hmm. 5:57 Which is a terrible kind of race to pit two things together, but when you think about- Being a black woman and this idea of, "Oh, she should've known better," this, that, and the other. Yeah, of course she knew better. 6:08 She owned up to it. But I really wanted to end that part of that three-part arc with her and show that redemption story. And true enough, 'cause Gabby Thomas is kinda like the golden girl, if you will. 6:21 Her and Sydney McLaughlin-Levrone. And let me be very clear, it's not that they didn't have adverse moments, right? But I think their adverse moments was not on the grand stage like Sha'Carri's was, right? 6:32 It was scrutinized. It was highlighted. It was... That moment went viral itself, right? It gave a lot of clicks and views and subscribes to people's platforms and stuff like that. 6:42 I thought when she was able to have that moment of redemption and win that world championship, and this, that, and the other, and to see her like, "Yeah. 6:52 Yeah, I did that," and then you see her emotion of starting to cry, "Oh, I really did that. I am a world champion." 6:58 And I'm pretty sure all the emotions of everything people said about her, doubted her, written her off, and all those things just came to the fore. 7:06 And that's why as much as I love a Gabby Thomas, as much as I love a Sydney McLaughlin-Levrone, a- and TT, and all of those, right? That redemption arc was fascinating to me, and I just really wanted to explore that. 7:19 I kinda wanna push back on this idea that Sha'Carri did something dumb. The reality is she was grieving. Correct. Let's start there. 100%. 7:26 She wasn't just, like, recreationally, like, allowing hubris to make her think that she could do whatever she wanted. She was grieving. 7:34 Grieving a loss that nobody knows how to handle at any age, let alone 20 or 21, which is the loss of their mother, and it felt like there was just no empathy whatsoever for that situation. 7:49 I wasn't in the comments arguing, but I was watching, and I was just like, "Okay, if this was me, if this was someone else, how would people treat us?" 7:58 And I don't think people think about what messages they send when they attack someone who looks like you. 8:04 I see myself in this person, and now I see what would happen if I stepped out of bounds, even for what I felt like was a justified reason. 8:13 And I remember her having to go on Good Morning America and tell the most awkward apology. Like, she's apologizing for everyone who's ever smoked weed. Are you kidding me right now? Right. This is what's called for? 8:25 And then the host of Good Morning America is just like, "How are you doing?" And it's like, "How do you think I'm doing? I don't wanna be here. I wanna be on a plane going to the Olympics." Right. 8:32 "I don't wanna talk to you." Exactly. I have honestly mixed reviews on drug testing in sports, if we're being honest. I'm sure for the Olympics, something like that, it's standard. Everybody gets drug tested. 8:42 But on some level, I'm also just going back to your phrase of her situation was about who gets grace and who doesn't, and we need to be honest about that, too. 8:50 Even for people who do get drug tested, a lot of them get a slap on the wrist. Yeah. You know? It's true. That's, that, that's very true. And, and the thing is, is it's like 9:00 I think people were having their say because, one, people like mess. Let's just be honest. 9:06 [chuckles] But also, two, and the irony of it is I think people who were badmouthing her were also grieving themselves, because grief is a tricky thing. 9:18 Because what they were act- what they were grieving in the form of being critical, I think, was like, "Damn, man, you were supposed to help us win this title back from the Jamaicans. Now what are we gonna do? 9:30 And you're resting all of your hopes and dreams and aspirations on a 21-year-old? That's what we're doing?" And so I think it's funny in, in that way. It's interesting. I would even take this back to 9:45 Florence Joyner-Griffin, because a lot of people call into question her 200-meter record that still has not been broken, and they say it's not a legal record because they suspect her of doping, which is just 9:58 an age-old tale when it comes to Black women athletes. Right. Said the same thing about Serena and Venus, and they tested them endlessly and never found anything. 10:06 So I think, again, my issue with drug testing athletes is a larger issue of why people feel that we can attribute drugs to their performance and not other people's performance. And quite frankly, 10:23 to me, marijuana is not a performance-enhancing drug, so why this was ever an indication of her performance at all, like why people counted her out so quickly after this drug test, was very confusing to me. 10:34 I never understood the one with Flo-Jo because when you go back and look at those races, and you look at her races from '88, in that '88 season to the '84 season, you can see the difference in her form, her stride. 10:47 It's like by '88 she looked like a, and I don't mean this in a malicious way, she was running like a robot, and what I mean is, like, her form was tight. 10:56 Like, it was almost like, like it was almost like the perfect race ran twice, right? 11:02 From the 100 meters, the 200 meters, it's like her form is tight, her stride is on point, and it's, she just looks like somebody who just has this muscle memory of what to do. 11:14 And, and so to talk about the drug testing part and then the person who said that she did it is supposed to have some type of debate and he didn't even show up, just indication that, see, you, we knew you was with the stuff. 11:24 We knew you was with the stuff when you didn't show up. It's just always fascinating to me. And like you said, to your point, both of those records still stand today. 11:32 Let's talk about the women who are also making some records just for a second. I know they weren't mentioned in the episode- Sure... 11:40 but I wanna go back to the TT Terrys of the world who did the 4 by 100 meter relay- Right... who had the fastest split within that- Mm-hmm... 4x team. But those are not necessarily the names we're always talking about. 11:53 Even in the 4 by, I think it's 400 meter mixed, the 4 by 400 meter women, like all set incredible records at this past Olympics. Those are not the names on the cereal boxes. 12:04 Those are not the names getting the biggest Nike sponsor deals to my knowledge and understanding. I wanna know what you think about how track athletes are being funded right now. 12:18 Because right now it is largely about who wins. Name one athlete who always wins. There isn't one. Right. You're gonna have to lose at some point. That's just life. Right. 12:28 And to base all of your effort and training and energy on a correlation between how much you make is a really hard thing mentally to think about- Right... truly. 12:41 But it's what all track athletes have to think about, whether they go pro after college or whether they go pro at 19 or whether they go pro just in time for the Olympics 'cause they wanna make the Olympic team. 12:51 In any case, they have to think more critically than I think other athletes do who play team sports about, how does this gonna pay my bills? Absolutely. Absolutely. 13:02 I remember when in '96, '92, I remember Home Depot were running ads during the Olympic season, if you will. They always championed, "We employ more Olympians than any other Fortune 500 company," or something like that. 13:17 They was proud about that. And I just remember saying, "Wait..." And I think that was the first moment I was like, "Wait a minute. There's no... We see Mary Lou Retton on the Wheaties box. 13:26 We see the Dan and Dave Reebok ad and stuff like that," which I thought was a fascinating ad, by the way. And so you mean to tell me these folks aren't getting paid like that? 13:35 So first of all, I think it goes to show that people who participate in this sport absolutely love this sport. 13:42 Because a lot of this stuff, like you have to fund yourself because everybody's not getting Nike endorsements and contracts and, and stuff like that. 13:51 But that's also one of the reasons why I wanted to highlight Mashomi Robinson because Mashomi didn't run the final in her 400, 4x400 meter race. 14:02 She was in one of the heats, and maybe in the semifinal, but I can't remember. 14:06 But she was definitely in one of the heats, and that is how she got her gold medal, which obviously highlights that anybody who runs from the heat to the final gets a medal if the team medals, right? 14:15 But that part was just always fascinating to me, and just to highlight people who love this sport. And also people who love this and put on the American uniform, the USA uniform, 14:27 is almost as patriotic, if not just as patriotic for someone who put on a uniform to go to war, right? Because it's still in service to the country. 14:35 Now, nine times out of 10, you're not putting your life on the line, so there's that separation. But outside of that, it's still in service to your country. 14:42 When I talked to Mashomi after, I was like, "Hey, thank you for your service." And she said nobody's ever told her that before, but you know what? 14:48 It makes sense because you are in service to your country, whether from a prestige, a morale, and all that stuff. You're starting to see, I think Michael Johnson now has his kinda track competition league. 15:00 You have the Wanda League and stuff like that, the Diamond League and things of that nature. 15:04 But yeah, track and field is really just still a sport where it's clearly bigger o- overseas than it is here because we have NFL and NBA and stuff like that to a Japan and be a superstar. 15:16 I remember FloJo was talking about in one of the interviews we kinda highlighted, I don't think it made the ending cut of the episode, but when I was doing my research, she was talking about how she would go to Japan and would be a rock star. 15:27 And then she would probably come back to Watts, and, "Oh, that's just Florence from down the street. She ain't nobody," and things of that nature. 15:33 But I think it just goes to show how, how important, how this sport is to people who, to go through it. 15:42 And it's cool to get a college scholarship and things of that nature, but you definitely have to pay your bills, and so you have to be very strategic to your point as far as, like, how to keep the bills, how to keep the lights on, how to keep training, how to keep paying your coaches and stuff like that because a, a Bob Kersee ain't just rolling outta bed to just coach anybody. 16:00 You're talking about one of the GOATs as far as coaching in this sport, from Florence Griffith Joyner to Gail Devers, Sydney McLaughlin-Levrone now, stuff like that. 16:10 You gotta pay these people, and you gotta pay to do a number of things. You gotta probably pay a nutritionist so you can keep your nutrition on point and things of that nature. 16:18 So it really is kinda like a, a ad hoc type of feel to it when it comes to these things. 16:23 But yeah, that, that's one of the fascinating stories of perseverance and endurance that doesn't get talked about enough, is just showing up is a game changer in itself. So for 16:39 people who are everyday athletes that are running after work, running before work, running for lunch, whatever people do when they run- Yeah... it's almost accepted, right, that you're gonna have a day job. 16:50 Like running is probably not most people's jobs- Right... right? 16:54 When you think about other sports like basketball or even football, it's almost accepted that even if you're not a professional athlete, you probably have a pretty good chance to work within the sport as a- Yep... 17:05 coach or as a trainer or something like that. Mm-hmm. So I think in totality, I think the infrastructure around running is a lot less, even though there are more people probably per capita that run on a daily basis. 17:16 Probably. You know what I mean? And there's a lot more shoes for running than there are for, like, basketball or soccer or football that are commercially available, that is. 17:25 And so it's almost interesting that running is probably one of America's most popular recreational sports- For sure... but it is the hardest to get paid for, to make a living from. 17:36 And I wonder if that's part of its challenge, right? It's, it's so easily accessible that, like, not everybody can jump as high as LeBron James. 17:44 Not everybody can run as fast as a, as a, I don't know, a Saquon Barkley or something like that. But everybody can... 17:51 Like, I can literally go put on my tennis shoes now and just go run in the cove or in the street or whatever, right? Now it'd be great if somebody was handing out endorsement deals. 17:59 Your money ain't gonna go no far 'cause I'm not gonna go that far 'cause I hate running. But my point is, is I wonder if it's, it's so accessible, which is what is its challenge is. 18:07 But also clearly- It could be an American thing because clearly overseas people see the, the, the appeal, right? 18:17 And you can be a track star and people know who you are walking down the street in a France or a Japan or a China. And here in the States, who? 18:26 And it's like we don't even really care until Olympic season, so every four years, right? Like maybe you get lucky and the world championships are being televised, but that's about it. 18:36 But I think things like what Michael Johnson is doing and having these leagues is, is gonna help in that regard. 18:41 It's probably gonna take a generation or two, I think, to get that notoriety, but I think it's, I think it's heading in the right direction. You just need something to kinda lift it off. 18:50 But also I think also at the same time, I think you need somebody like a Sha'Carri Richardson with the swag and the, and the, and the ego and stuff like that. 'Cause I think that is how you get that appeal. 19:01 Or Noah Lyles, right? And you're gonna show up to watch Noah Lyles either win the race or fall on his face, right? Either way, you're getting views, you're getting clicks, you're getting downloads and all the things. 19:13 Or Sydney McLaughlin-Levrone, who's just like, just dominant in what she does, right? You're gonna need those superstars. 19:19 So I think if track and field is gonna get to that level where we gonna walk down the street and see somebody, it, it needs those personalities, right? Because that's honestly how the NBA works. 19:28 Like a lot of people know is like the NBA is a personality league as opposed to the NFL. It's more team oriented, right? You root for the team. 19:35 And so I just think you probably just need those personalities to shine through, but I think you have a nice plethora of them right now with all the people I just mentioned. Yeah. 19:46 I think part of me feels like it's an infrastructure issue. Okay. Because a s- a similar thing is true for cycling, like cycling has a lot of huge events in Europe. 19:55 We don't really have big solo cycling events here in the States. Right. So like your Giro d'Italias, your Tour de France, your La Vueltas, that's all in Europe. All right? 20:06 Um, half of Americans can't tell you what the hell I just said. 20:09 [chuckles] But a lot of them started off really young riding a bike and like still to this day probably ride for recreation, they ride for transportation, but it's just not anywhere near as big. 20:19 And I think I know that part of that is infrastructure. It's just not a lot of places that are safe- Right... for us to ride bikes here. And I think some of that is true for running as well. It's like you really have to 20:30 be- And on the school... specific about where you run. Yeah. Yeah. And, and honestly, I think also not just the infrastructure, but geography, right? 20:37 Like one of, one of America's biggest war strategic benefits is having two oceans on each side. 20:45 And I th- and I think while that's great for war efforts or whatever, maybe not so much for communal peace between other countries if whether... 20:54 'Cause in Europe there's, you can travel nine hours and go through so many countries without... And if you blink, you'll miss one. 21:00 But I think that also provides a communal aspect as, as far as like having those infrastructures in place is just a lot easier. When you're pretty much in here in America and you just got 21:11 Canada to the north and Mexico to the south, it's kinda hard to build that kinda infrastructure, I think. So I definitely agree with you what you're saying there. 21:21 One thing that I've been noticing about track is that track fans are typically other track athletes, right? 21:28 And a lot of the track events that are hosted here in America are hosted at college track events and college track stadiums where they're already attracting an audience of people who want to root for you, who have been following you probably since high school. 21:43 And even former and current track athletes who maybe aren't competing, they will come and show up in support because they care about the sport. I find that it is harder for me to see 21:54 non-current or former track athletes supporting the sport in the off-season or in the indoor track season or in a non-Olympic year. 22:02 And one of the things that's made that apparent to me is every time I hear Allyson Felix's name when it comes to track, it's not because she's competing anymore, it's because she's doing something to pour back into- Right... 22:12 women athletes and women track athletes. Talk to me about what you think the influence is going to look like in the next five to 10 years of former women track athletes specifically pouring back into the sport. 22:24 I think Allyson Felix, and I don't wanna be naive and be like she's the first person to do something like this. I may never heard it, but I think what Allyson Felix provides is, and I'm a huge Allyson Felix fan. 22:36 I remember watching, I think she had four gold, like a senior year of high school to run in the 2004 Olympics or something like that, which is just dope to me. 22:44 But like pouring back into the sport itself and as it l- relates to supporting moms and people who want to be moms and athletes, I think this past Olympiad, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, I believe she was a big proponent of having lactation stations, uh, on the Olympic Village right there, right? 23:01 Mm-hmm. Um, so again, I think it's gonna take things like that and just that unapologetic advocacy of athletes in, in, in general, especially women. 23:12 And, and I think whether she wins, lose, or whatever the case may be, uh, when it comes to a Sha'Carri or something like that, I feel like she's gonna do something similar. We don't know what that is. 23:22 I think right now she's just focusing on her craft of running and things of that nature, but I would love to see her blossom that into some type of advocacy. 23:32 It could be something about doping and how doping is administered, whatever. I feel if a study was done, I feel like Black and brown people get probably get tested a little bit more- Yeah... 23:42 [chuckles] than maybe other people, but that's just me. Um, because we know that history of things like that happening, not just here in the United States, but around the world. 23:51 That could be her calling card or maybe it, it's something else, right? But I think it also starts at the grassroots level. It's the coaching at the high schools and building the pipelines. 24:00 And I think that's super important to, to not just women athletes, but just athletics in general as it comes to Black and brown people to know that, "Hey, track and field is cool and you can make a little bit of money. 24:12 It is a little bit tougher, but if you love the sport, there's a way," right? But I think it's just that advocacy piece and for For, uh, Gabby Thomas, it could be saying, "Hey, you can be smart and do this sport." 24:25 Because wow, Harvard degree and you sitting up here dusting people on the track, that's, listen, [laughs] quite the attribute there. 24:31 But I think it's just those advocacy campaigns, and I think all athletes have that one thing that they really care about. 24:38 And so if they can find a way to meld both of those things as it relates to track and field, the future looks bright for the sport, I think. I do wanna close a curiosity gap that you opened here. 24:52 For a lot of the people that are listening in to this show, they are Black and Brown women athletes. What would you tell them about what it means to be a Black and Brown woman athlete at the highest level in America? 25:06 What does it mean to truly be an Olympian and embody the American flag when you're running for your country? And to, 25:14 what is the hope that is on the horizon for future Olympians and world-class athletes that are gonna be competing in LA 2028 and beyond? For sure. I'll, I'll say as a man, from what I have learned, right, is that, like, 25:30 the door is open, albeit a little not as open as maybe for a white straight male athlete. 25:38 The door is open, and I think when you get in that door, you kick it down unapologetically because they're gonna have something to say if you win, they're gonna have something to say if you lose, they're gonna have something to say if you fall on your face, they're gonna have something to say if you get suspended for doping or whatever the case may be. 25:55 So you might as well just be unapologetically you, because what's the point of trying to conform to whatever? That's one of the things Mashomi was saying, right? 26:02 Listen, it takes so much to get on the-- before we get to that starting line. 26:07 It takes so much, and I'd be damned that I'll allow, you know, somebody in the Twitterverse, the Facebook universe ecosystem, the whatever, or the Instagram whatever to be like, "Ah, you didn't deserve it. 26:22 Yeah, she won, but the only reason she's here is because blank." But you weren't there. You weren't there at the 4:00 AM, 5:00 AM trainings. 26:31 You weren't there trying to get the extra shifts at, say, a Home Depot or your local grocery store so I can pay this nutritionist that I'm behind on two payments for. 26:42 But they gave me grace to kind of-- because they know what they're trying to do. You weren't there when I was trying to finish up my training but also get back to the other side of town to pick my kids up from school. 26:54 Like you weren't there. People just don't understand that journey. What I learned from Mashomi is just the fact that, like, people are gonna have something to say regardless. 27:03 So you might as well just train as hard as you can, be the best as you can, and when you get to that podium, let the nails fly, sis. Let the hair shine, sis. 27:13 Like, I'm serious because again, 'cause like I said, people are gonna have something to say anyway, so you might as well just do you. You might as well just do you and let the chips fall where they may. I love it. 27:23 Thank you so much. Of course.
